> It doesn’t matter that the language you use is memory-safe, if you didn’t design for correctness or have no process that will eventually lead you to fixing all bugs.
After many years in the business I have come to a more pragmatic view. There is no meaningful way of distinguishing features from bugs. It doesn't matter that work tracking software usually does.
Once you realize that the lack of a feature is the same as the presence of a bug then "fixing all bugs" also means "adding all the features", then you also accept that you will never be done.
If you have a bug to fix to weigh against a feature to add, which do you pick? The only correct answer is "The one that provides most value". And again we see that it's very possible - even likely - that fixing the last bug will _never_ be as important as adding more features.
I know this is probably not what the author meant. First of all "having a process" doesn't mean completing the process. Second of all, you can categorize bugs as being of a specific kind (The linked article under [fixing all bugs] actually only talks about failing asserts).
A bug is a feature that does what the code says it should do, not what the requirements say it should do (or shouldn't in the case of most bugs). When you understand that there's no difference between a bug and a feature in the code. They're both just code.
It's a correct statement, but when you're talking about memory safe languages it's true that memory safety helps you avoid writing code that doesn't do what you were expecting, so I'd still suggest memory safety matters for reducing the number of bugs.
Some times there is, and in many cases there is not. Distinguishing a feature from a bug requires having some kind of spec. In some cases you can have obvious sign the behaviour is unintended/not desired, but in other cases it's not so easy.
For example a customer reports a bug, your program can't print. Oh, you say, we never even had that feature! Please post again, as a feature request.
Customer mumbles and requests the same thing as a feature request, not a bug report. They never understood what the difference was though. They couldn't print. Program bad.
Now you implement the printing feature. There is an infinity of things to handle there. You add the 99.9% case which is basically regular printers, perhaps normal paper sizes. You however don't throw in things like document splitting (sending different pages to different devices based on capability). You have to stop somewhere. None of this is specified, however. None of the limitations are communicated to users. But you added the feature - in some sense.
Then a customer with a 1970's pen plotter files a bug report that your new feature doesn't work on his device. Will you fix his bug? He's the only one on the planet with the problem. Is it a bug or a new feature? To him it's _clearly_ a bug. To you it would _clearly_ be a new feature to support pen plotting. You could argue the semantics of whether this is a bug or a feature until the sun goes down and it doesn't really matter. Either the fixed bug/added feature has enough value to be done, or it doesn't.
A key takeaway here: this isn't merely something that appears in the perspective of the user vs the developer. The argument about whether you actually have a "Bug" because you stopped short of implementing every kind of printing known to man is one you could have with your PM too. He likely didn't even consider that. But does that make it not a bug?
I read it as an argument from the end user’s perspective. Kind of like this:
- trying to do X, getting software error: bug
- wishing the software did Y, even though it’s not implemented: bug
Indeed there are people who think like that, but usually they are people like my grandparents, whose level of software understanding boils down to “the Desktop is where I play Solitaire” and “Internet Explorer is the literal internet”.
That's the simple version of it yes. I outlined a more complex version of it in a parallel answer. In short: lacking a complete specification of what to do, it's often impossible even within software teams to tell whether something is a bug.
And you never have a complete specification of what to do.
By "The one that provides most value", do you mean in the short or long term? Very often, in my experience, prioritizing so-called "quick wins" only quickly wins the codebase more tech debt, that puts the project on a sure path to development hell.
I imagine it's a difficult time to be a Zig developer.
In the near term, Bun choosing to switch from Zig to Rust specifically to fix all the memory errors seems to have done the Zig community some psychological damage.
But more significantly, in the medium term it looks likely that AI coding is going to overtake the industry before Zig gets properly established. And it is going to be very hard to justify choosing Zig for your sloppy-but-functional AI-written code - why open yourself up to memory unsafety on top of everything else? Further, the Zig community appears to value a hand-crafted, 'artisanal' approach to software development, which is the very antithesis of vibecoding.
I have no particular interest in Zig as a language but definitely feel some empathy here. The industry is changing in ways that many of us are struggling to process.
> I imagine it's a difficult time to be a Zig developer.
In some ways it always has been, the community was 'born' in the middle of the pandemic, then for a long time there was a constant influx of Rust zealots coming into threads about Zig to remark how immoral it is to use Zig, and now LLM shovel sellers are telling everybody that the only way forward is to become efficient at consuming tokens.
But it's actually not that bad.
The Zig community is growing pretty well, useful software is being written in Zig, and the advantages that Zig brings are still valid whether you hand-code or use LLMs (e.g. cross-compilation of C/C++ code).
This might be a very naive take on my part, but I don't think of vibecoding as a competitor to actual coding the same way I don't think of doing amphetamines (even if they make you more productive in the short term) as a competitor to being clean. I think it's a self-destructive behavior that is ultimately going to degrade your critical thinking skills, especially if you're a beginner. As with everything, the smarter your tools, the dumber you get. People often claim to acquire "higher level thinking" skills from it (as do meth users), but even if that's true, they are also currently teaching those skills to the very tools that try to replace them.
The question is why would you fare any better if you don't use it. I don't know how it will play out, but this much I know: I will never pay for AI music, because I can replicate it for free. I'm still buying music from real musicians (in fact tons more than ever before), because I can't. Similarly, I have contributed to many FOSS projects (both financially and in PRs), but will not (knowingly) do the same for the ones that are vibecoded. Whether that will amount to anything or is just a fart in the wind, we'll see.
the zig team says that in the future stabilizing the IR and providing an API will happen.
fwiw in the process of building this project the llms have never once written a memory safety error in the "lib" section (in the src section there was a lot of tripping over segfaults since memory mapping datatypes accessed by a dylib can get hairy)
Agreed unfortunately, if Zigs whole selling point is meant to be a "nicer C" (and a much nicer DX than Rust because no fighting the borrow checker etc) - does that really matter in a world where an LLM is writing the code? I am not going to be fighting the borrow checker, the LLM is.
And as always, the response you'll hear is: but AI sucks/hallucinates/could never replace me etc... Just look at the progress LLM'S have made in the past few years, and extrapolate that to the next 10 or 20 years. I don't see how Zig makes sense if this is the trajectory the industry is going.
> In the near term, Bun choosing to switch from Zig to Rust specifically to fix all the memory errors seems to have done the Zig community some psychological damage.
Meanwhile, some projects are doing the opposite, like going from Rust to Zig, here's an example from a podcast I recently listened to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSXGf3oN2yU
I think Bun just got a lot of visibility because of the speed and scope of the migration, which both shook things up and I guess was good PR cause that made a lot of headlines.
I wish Roclang well but (as a regular listener to Feldman's podcast) I don't think we can draw many conclusions from this switch other than "Feldman has lots of opinions on lots of things".
I am not optimistic. When I look back in history, “worse is better” won every time. And vibecoding is the current epitome of “worse is better”. There are many places where code is a necessary evil, just a means to an end. And when the resulting software has never been particularly good anyway, then vibe-coded slop might just be good enough. Eventually, the economics will decide. There is a small chance that rising costs of LLM usage might save a segment or two from being devoured altogether.
1. Fixing memory errors wasn't the reason the project migrated to Zig, but a beef between the Bun maintainer not getting his own changes in the upstream compiler and the Bun's new employer focus on Rust.
2. You can write memory safe code in C (Redis, SQLite, OpenBSD, Git, etc), let alone in Zig which provides more tools to write memory safe code.
3. AI can write very good Zig already. This isn't 2024 anymore where "the LLM has seen lots of this language so will write better in this language" scenario existed. Will make you an example: I have worked in a very esoteric typescript fork called TS plus (providing among others fluent style apis for pipe-able functions) and even Opus 4.1 did well. Recently I have forked the Elm language and the LLM had no problem dealing with it, despite significant differences to the original Elm.
4. Zig's community uses Zig because it likes Zig and its tooling and doesn't like the constraints of other languages. Simple as that.
The truth is a bit of everything, bun being a messy codebase written primarily with "move fast and break things" in mind, cultural divergence between Bun and the Zig community, and also hiring issues. People maybe forgot but Jarred at some point caused a bunch of drama when he tweeted that working at Bun is not for people that value life/work balance, which went viral and caused an uproar. Must not have been super easy to hire from the Zig community after that, and in fact once Bun got acquired by Anthropic, it was pretty much Jarred and Claude doing all the work on the codebase. Pivoting to Rust is probably at least in part a way to reset the clock on those hiring interactions.
It is really inspiring to see other people passionate about programming. Really love the people building zig. Especially Andrew and Loris and some other people I saw in codeberg
Damn this person's obviously is so bitter towards Rust... I wonder why he's so obsessed with it?
I mean, if they really care about software correctness, I wonder why take a very discutibile position and say that "safety doesn't matter if you don't use the correct process". Yeah, I mean, having some guardrails is better than none, right? If they really cared about correctness, they would really strive to put all the possible guardrails in place, wouldn't they? Maybe they are bitter because their fav language is not as popular as the other?
But there are so many languages, I wonder why picking on Rust specifically.
I don't get it. Are we reading the same article? This article is so generic that it reads like vacuous truth to me. But I don't see their bitterness towards Rust (or anything, really. It's just vacuous.) from it. Is this person a famous anti-rust'er or something?
It's like saying it doesn't matter if surgery is done another antiseptic conditions if the patient isn't also given a course of antibiotics during recovery.
It's not an argument against safe practices, it's an argument for amending one kind of safety with others.
What 'all the comments'? There aren't many comments in this thread. You mean this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48432736 ? I flagged it too. I think the flag is quite justified.
oh I don't particularly care I'm just asking what is it about this article that is so worthy of being front page? I'm literally just calling out the content. I'm sorry for complaining.
It’s getting attention because the subtext of the article is the zig vs AI ideological battle going on (and zig vs Rust somewhat on the backburner)
Recent events AFAIU:
- bun (bought by big AI) switching to Rust
- zig team banning AI pull requests (because they want to review humans)
- The cloud industry buying all coding tooling companies (uv, vite, bun) but zig being unbuyable
If anybody from the zig core team is reading this: thank you and carry on the good work.
so im just getting caught up with zig is I have never really paid attention to it
so far I'm not really getting zig and I see they banned AI ? seems like that is just going to attract anti-AI user base...not sure if that was a wise decision.
also not really sure why anyone would migrate from Rust to Zig, it seems much less mature and unsure of the ROI there.
It's bland and generic because it's a manifesto. Author (and HN submitter) is Loris Cro, aka @kristoff_it, VP of Community at Zig Software Foundation.
In his role, devising as set of general guidelines to use as compass when things (inevitably! and often!) get very very muddy and Right v. Wrong is hard to tell apart -- both objectively, and also from the point of view of being a community leader with ton of vested interest -- is essentially one half of his job. Other half is abide to said guidelines.
So @kristoff_it last week sat down, came up with three simple rules short enough he can print on a business card (or hang on his office wall or whatever), and posted them here to test if they make sense to the wider community.
TLDR: yes can seem bland / generic but within context it makes sense to me author needed to distill his ethics in a nutshell.
I think you will be surprised by how many developers do not have this same list of priorities (or in that order) when developing software.
I posted this link at the same time when I posted it to Lobsters (https://lobste.rs/s/g6lkw1/my_software_north_star) 3 days ago, but it didn't get on the front page. Seeing that the submission time has been reset, I imagine it was given a second chance by HN curators (it's a known process), but that doesn't mean free upvotes, it's just that some people resonate with the thinking.
> It doesn’t matter that the language you use is memory-safe
> nobody can trick me into mistaking lesser stars for my true destination
The author seems to be in some level of denial around compile-time safety checks. They're right that runtime safety errors are an issue, but it feels wrong to discount compile time checkers when it can save a lot of yak shaving.
>It doesn’t matter that the language you use is memory-safe, if you didn’t design for correctness or have no process that will eventually lead you to fixing all bugs.
It's also worth noting that they linked a post about how memory safety is literally a matter of life and death, so it seems like their point is that memory safety is one class of bug, and a compiler guarantee about it doesn't equate to a guarantee of correct, bugless, unexploitable code.
Like, the linked author brought up that Khashoggi's wife's phone was hacked. Maybe that was due to a memory bug or some other kind of bug. Maybe the next journalist who gets hacked is a victim of a memory bug or some other kind of bug. But that linked post didn't take a holistic view of correctness, but went straight to, "Rust is safe. Rust saves lives." There's a logical error there that's being pointed out.
If you really want to save lives, you need to eliminate exploits. Not just do a victory lap because your compiler ostensibly eliminates one class of them. The compiler doesn't catch all bugs. The compiler isn't the only tool for catching bugs.
That's my reading of it, anyway. I think he has a point, and the Rust people do as well. I think it's wrong to portray him as bitter.
That is correct, this blog post is about understanding the priority of various subgoals and the ultimate goal (creating useful software). Memory-safety is important but overfitting on that subgoal, as I believe the memory-safety blog post is doing, won't make you create better software.
If Rust helps you get all the way to correctness, then great, but that blog post was insane.
Agree, the claim "secure because Rust" is wrong. But "more secure than if it were written in an unsafe language" is probably going to be true most of the time.
After many years in the business I have come to a more pragmatic view. There is no meaningful way of distinguishing features from bugs. It doesn't matter that work tracking software usually does.
Once you realize that the lack of a feature is the same as the presence of a bug then "fixing all bugs" also means "adding all the features", then you also accept that you will never be done.
If you have a bug to fix to weigh against a feature to add, which do you pick? The only correct answer is "The one that provides most value". And again we see that it's very possible - even likely - that fixing the last bug will _never_ be as important as adding more features.
I know this is probably not what the author meant. First of all "having a process" doesn't mean completing the process. Second of all, you can categorize bugs as being of a specific kind (The linked article under [fixing all bugs] actually only talks about failing asserts).
It's a correct statement, but when you're talking about memory safe languages it's true that memory safety helps you avoid writing code that doesn't do what you were expecting, so I'd still suggest memory safety matters for reducing the number of bugs.
For example a customer reports a bug, your program can't print. Oh, you say, we never even had that feature! Please post again, as a feature request.
Customer mumbles and requests the same thing as a feature request, not a bug report. They never understood what the difference was though. They couldn't print. Program bad.
Now you implement the printing feature. There is an infinity of things to handle there. You add the 99.9% case which is basically regular printers, perhaps normal paper sizes. You however don't throw in things like document splitting (sending different pages to different devices based on capability). You have to stop somewhere. None of this is specified, however. None of the limitations are communicated to users. But you added the feature - in some sense. Then a customer with a 1970's pen plotter files a bug report that your new feature doesn't work on his device. Will you fix his bug? He's the only one on the planet with the problem. Is it a bug or a new feature? To him it's _clearly_ a bug. To you it would _clearly_ be a new feature to support pen plotting. You could argue the semantics of whether this is a bug or a feature until the sun goes down and it doesn't really matter. Either the fixed bug/added feature has enough value to be done, or it doesn't.
A key takeaway here: this isn't merely something that appears in the perspective of the user vs the developer. The argument about whether you actually have a "Bug" because you stopped short of implementing every kind of printing known to man is one you could have with your PM too. He likely didn't even consider that. But does that make it not a bug?
And you never have a complete specification of what to do.
The answer to that is sadly "yes".
> prioritizing so-called "quick wins" only quickly wins the codebase more tech debt, that puts the project on a sure path to development hell.
That's why we pay senior developers lots of money. Their gut feeling (or past scars) about what actually gives value across different horizons.
In the near term, Bun choosing to switch from Zig to Rust specifically to fix all the memory errors seems to have done the Zig community some psychological damage.
But more significantly, in the medium term it looks likely that AI coding is going to overtake the industry before Zig gets properly established. And it is going to be very hard to justify choosing Zig for your sloppy-but-functional AI-written code - why open yourself up to memory unsafety on top of everything else? Further, the Zig community appears to value a hand-crafted, 'artisanal' approach to software development, which is the very antithesis of vibecoding.
I have no particular interest in Zig as a language but definitely feel some empathy here. The industry is changing in ways that many of us are struggling to process.
In some ways it always has been, the community was 'born' in the middle of the pandemic, then for a long time there was a constant influx of Rust zealots coming into threads about Zig to remark how immoral it is to use Zig, and now LLM shovel sellers are telling everybody that the only way forward is to become efficient at consuming tokens.
But it's actually not that bad.
The Zig community is growing pretty well, useful software is being written in Zig, and the advantages that Zig brings are still valid whether you hand-code or use LLMs (e.g. cross-compilation of C/C++ code).
The question is why would you fare any better if you don't use it. I don't know how it will play out, but this much I know: I will never pay for AI music, because I can replicate it for free. I'm still buying music from real musicians (in fact tons more than ever before), because I can't. Similarly, I have contributed to many FOSS projects (both financially and in PRs), but will not (knowingly) do the same for the ones that are vibecoded. Whether that will amount to anything or is just a fart in the wind, we'll see.
zig is reasonably established. the llms write pretty good zig. see project linked below which is almost entirely llm-written
> And it is going to be very hard to justify choosing Zig for your sloppy-but-functional AI-written code
why? because one project that was shipping fast made a dog's breakfast of it?
> why open yourself up to memory unsafety on top of everything else?
this can be addressed by third parties in the reasonable near-term. for example:
https://github.com/ityonemo/clr
the zig team says that in the future stabilizing the IR and providing an API will happen.
fwiw in the process of building this project the llms have never once written a memory safety error in the "lib" section (in the src section there was a lot of tripping over segfaults since memory mapping datatypes accessed by a dylib can get hairy)
And as always, the response you'll hear is: but AI sucks/hallucinates/could never replace me etc... Just look at the progress LLM'S have made in the past few years, and extrapolate that to the next 10 or 20 years. I don't see how Zig makes sense if this is the trajectory the industry is going.
Meanwhile, some projects are doing the opposite, like going from Rust to Zig, here's an example from a podcast I recently listened to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSXGf3oN2yU
Here's the project in question: https://github.com/roc-lang/roc
I think Bun just got a lot of visibility because of the speed and scope of the migration, which both shook things up and I guess was good PR cause that made a lot of headlines.
2. You can write memory safe code in C (Redis, SQLite, OpenBSD, Git, etc), let alone in Zig which provides more tools to write memory safe code.
3. AI can write very good Zig already. This isn't 2024 anymore where "the LLM has seen lots of this language so will write better in this language" scenario existed. Will make you an example: I have worked in a very esoteric typescript fork called TS plus (providing among others fluent style apis for pipe-able functions) and even Opus 4.1 did well. Recently I have forked the Elm language and the LLM had no problem dealing with it, despite significant differences to the original Elm.
4. Zig's community uses Zig because it likes Zig and its tooling and doesn't like the constraints of other languages. Simple as that.
https://xcancel.com/jarredsumner/status/2055796104302858694#...
> I’m just tired of dealing with crashes and memory leaks & want language features to help prevent things
(Edit: this reply seemed less flippant before the parent edited their reply)
What kind of 'useful'? Normative? Empirical? Prescriptive? Pragmatic?
'Useful' is a very subjective north star.
I mean, if they really care about software correctness, I wonder why take a very discutibile position and say that "safety doesn't matter if you don't use the correct process". Yeah, I mean, having some guardrails is better than none, right? If they really cared about correctness, they would really strive to put all the possible guardrails in place, wouldn't they? Maybe they are bitter because their fav language is not as popular as the other?
But there are so many languages, I wonder why picking on Rust specifically.
https://joshlf.com/posts/memory-safety-life-and-death/
Under a "it doesn't matter it's memory-safe if..."
It's like saying it doesn't matter if surgery is done another antiseptic conditions if the patient isn't also given a course of antibiotics during recovery.
It's not an argument against safe practices, it's an argument for amending one kind of safety with others.
Recent events AFAIU: - bun (bought by big AI) switching to Rust - zig team banning AI pull requests (because they want to review humans) - The cloud industry buying all coding tooling companies (uv, vite, bun) but zig being unbuyable
If anybody from the zig core team is reading this: thank you and carry on the good work.
so far I'm not really getting zig and I see they banned AI ? seems like that is just going to attract anti-AI user base...not sure if that was a wise decision.
also not really sure why anyone would migrate from Rust to Zig, it seems much less mature and unsure of the ROI there.
In his role, devising as set of general guidelines to use as compass when things (inevitably! and often!) get very very muddy and Right v. Wrong is hard to tell apart -- both objectively, and also from the point of view of being a community leader with ton of vested interest -- is essentially one half of his job. Other half is abide to said guidelines.
So @kristoff_it last week sat down, came up with three simple rules short enough he can print on a business card (or hang on his office wall or whatever), and posted them here to test if they make sense to the wider community.
TLDR: yes can seem bland / generic but within context it makes sense to me author needed to distill his ethics in a nutshell.
I'm tourist in Zig land too, follow Kristoff / A. Kelley etc, Tiger Beetle DB (written in Zig) and stuff, but only as observer / bystander.
I posted this link at the same time when I posted it to Lobsters (https://lobste.rs/s/g6lkw1/my_software_north_star) 3 days ago, but it didn't get on the front page. Seeing that the submission time has been reset, I imagine it was given a second chance by HN curators (it's a known process), but that doesn't mean free upvotes, it's just that some people resonate with the thinking.
> nobody can trick me into mistaking lesser stars for my true destination
The author seems to be in some level of denial around compile-time safety checks. They're right that runtime safety errors are an issue, but it feels wrong to discount compile time checkers when it can save a lot of yak shaving.
>It doesn’t matter that the language you use is memory-safe, if you didn’t design for correctness or have no process that will eventually lead you to fixing all bugs.
It's also worth noting that they linked a post about how memory safety is literally a matter of life and death, so it seems like their point is that memory safety is one class of bug, and a compiler guarantee about it doesn't equate to a guarantee of correct, bugless, unexploitable code.
Like, the linked author brought up that Khashoggi's wife's phone was hacked. Maybe that was due to a memory bug or some other kind of bug. Maybe the next journalist who gets hacked is a victim of a memory bug or some other kind of bug. But that linked post didn't take a holistic view of correctness, but went straight to, "Rust is safe. Rust saves lives." There's a logical error there that's being pointed out.
If you really want to save lives, you need to eliminate exploits. Not just do a victory lap because your compiler ostensibly eliminates one class of them. The compiler doesn't catch all bugs. The compiler isn't the only tool for catching bugs.
That's my reading of it, anyway. I think he has a point, and the Rust people do as well. I think it's wrong to portray him as bitter.
If Rust helps you get all the way to correctness, then great, but that blog post was insane.
EDIT: doesn't really answer your question. Just reminds me of a good ol' flamewar.
What makes you think that?
> I wonder why picking on Rust specifically.
I did not see that. What did I miss?